Level 3: indefinites [13] quīdam [iii] practice

Exercise: complete the Latin excerpts with the appropriate form of quīdam; the answers are at the end of the post

[i] There was a (certain) man in Caesarea named Cornelius │ vir autem __________ erat in Caesareā nōmine Cornēlius

[ii] In Joppa there was a certain disciple [fem.] named Tabitha│ In Joppē autem fuit __________ discipula, nōmine Tabitha

[iii] they seized Simon, a certain Cyrenian, who was coming in from the country │ adprehendērunt Simōnem __________ Cȳrēnēnsem venientem dē vīllā

[iv] However, we must run aground on a certain island │ in īnsulam autem __________ oportet nōs dēvenīre

[v] a creditor (moneylender) had two debtors [= to a certain creditor were …] │ duo dēbitōrēs erant __________ fēnerātōrī

[vi] Now the slave of a certain centurion, who was valuable to him, was sick and about to die │ centuriōnis autem __________ servus male habēns erat moritūrus quī illī erat pretiōsus

[vii] And it came to pass, that, as he was in a certain place praying … │ et factum est cum esset in locō __________ ōrāns

[viii] There was a certain judge in one town who didn't fear God │ Iūdex __________ erat in __________ cīvitāte, quī Deum nōn timēbat

[ix] And certain (ones) of those standing there said to them: │ Et __________ dē illīc stantibus dīcēbant illīs:

[x] and taking unto them some wicked men of the vulgar sort │  adsūmentēsque dē vulgō virōs __________ malōs

[xi] They subvert the faith of some (people) │ subvertunt __________ fidem

[xii] (1) A certain woman loves (2) a certain (man) │ Amat mulier (1) __________ (2) __________

[xiii] Is this the chap who used to be brave [ = was brave at one time]? │  hicinest, quī fuit quondam fortis?

cuidam; cuiusdam; quādam; quaedam; quaedam; quandam; quendam; quendam; quīdam; quīdam; quīdam; quōdam; quondam; quōrundam; quōsdam

[i] vir autem quīdam erat in Caesareā nōmine Cornēlius

[ii] In Joppē autem fuit quaedam discipula, nōmine Tabitha

[iii] adprehendērunt Simōnem quendam Cȳrēnēnsem venientem dē vīllā

[iv] in īnsulam autem quandam oportet nōs dēvenīre

[v] duo dēbitōrēs erant cuidam fēnerātōrī

[vi] centuriōnis autem cuiusdam servus male habēns erat moritūrus quī illī erat pretiōsus

[vii] et factum est cum esset in locō quōdam ōrāns

[viii] Iūdex quīdam erat in quādam cīvitāte, quī Deum nōn timēbat

[ix] Et quīdam dē illīc stantibus dīcēbant illīs:

[x] adsūmentēsque dē vulgō virōs quōsdam malōs

[xi] subvertunt quōrundam fidem

[xii] Amat mulier (1) quaedam (2) quendam

[xiii] hicinest, quī fuit quondam fortis?

Level 3: indefinites [12] quīdam [ii] examples

The first four examples of quīdam are from the Mediaeval text Gesta Rōmānōrum, more of which we’ll look at later in the group. In that text, it is used frequently to introduce stories, and employed to keep names and places vague.

Examples: singular

Imperātrīx quaedam erat, in cuius imperiō erat quīdam mīles │ There was a certain empress in whose empire was a certain soldier

Perrēxit ad quendam philosophum │ He went to a certain philosopher [some philosopher i.e. it doesn’t matter which philosopher]

tibi habeō sēcrētum pandere quoddam │ I have a certain secret to reveal to you

Accidit quōdam diē, ut, cum fīlius piscātōris cum pilā quādam lūderet … │ It happened on a certain day, when the fisherman’s son was playing with a certain ball …

modo quandam vidi virginem hic viciniae miseram suam matrem lamentari mortuam (Terence)

Ac mihi repetenda est ¦ veteris cuiusdam memoriae ¦ … recordātiō (Cicero) │ And now I must bring back to mind the recollection ¦ of a certain old story (one translation gives this simply as “an old story”)

dedī mercātōrī cuidam, quī ad illum dēferat (Plautus) │ I gave (them) to a certain merchant who was to carry them to him

Examples: plural; the first two examples from [i] Comenius, and [ii] the Codex Buranus show that the translation can simply be expressed as a vague some (pupils / people)

[i] 18.11.24: Comenius; in a 17th century school [1]; text and translation

https://adckl.blogspot.com/2024/09/181124-comenius-in-17th-century-school.html

the Master │Praeceptor

sitteth in a Chair │ sedet in Cathedrā

the Scholars │ Discipulī

in Forms (on benches) │ In subsellīs

he teacheth, they learn│ Ille docet, hī discunt

some things (certain things) │ Quaedam

are writ(ten) before them │ Praescrībuntur illīs

with Chalk on a Table │ Crētā in tabellā

Some (certain ones) sit │ Quīdam sedent

at a Table, and write, │ ad Mēnsam, & scrībunt,

he mendeth their Faults, │ ipse corrigit Mendās,

Some stand and rehearse things │ Quīdam stant, & recitant

committed to memory, │ memoriae mandāta,

Some talk together, │ Quīdam cōnfābulantur,

and behave themselves wantonly │ ac gerunt sē petulantēs

and carelessly; │ & negligentēs

[ii] In tabernā quandō sumus (Codex Buranus: 13^th century); the song is certainly not going to name the drunks, the ‘indiscrete’ chaps, and the guys who lose the shirt off their backs in dice playing!

Quīdam lūdunt, quīdam bibunt, │ Some (certain ones) play, some drink

quīdam indiscrētē vīvunt. │ Some behave loosely

Sed in lūdō quī morantur, │ But those who / the ones who linger in the game [ = keep on gambling]

ex hīs quīdam dēnūdantur │ Some of them are stripped bare

quīdam ibi vestiuntur, │ Some are dressed (‘adorned’) [ = win their clothes] there

quīdam saccīs induuntur. │  Some are dressed in sacks

Ibi nūllus timet mortem │ There no-one fears death

sed prō Bacchō mittunt sortem │ but they throw the dice in the name of Bacchus

Plural examples (all from the Vulgate apart from [vi])

[i] trahēbant Jāsonem et quōsdam frātrēs ad prīncipēs cīvitātis │they dragged Jason and some (of the) brethren before the city council

[ii] ibi vīdimus mōnstra quaedam fīliōrum Enach │ There we saw certain monsters of the sons of Enac

[iii] Singular and plural in the same sentence; note how the King James version reflects the translation of quīdam:

Quaestiōnēs vērō quāsdam dē suā superstitiōne habēbant adversus eum, et dē quōdam Jēsū dēfūnctō, quem affirmābat Paulus vīvere. │ But they had certain questions against him concerning their own superstition and of one Jesus [i.e. a certain Jesus, somebody who they know about, but their knowledge is vague], who was dead and whom Paul affirmed to be alive.

[iv] quōrundam hominum peccāta manifēsta sunt │ Some people's sins are evident

[v] … ā quibusdam quia Iōhannēs surrēxit ā mortuīs ā quibusdam vērō quia Heliās appāruit │ … by (according to) some that John was risen from the dead: but by some (others), that Elias had appeared

[vi] Celsus:

Sūdor etiam duōbus modīs ēlicitur, aut siccō calōre aut balneō. Siccus calor est et harēnae calidae … et quārundam nātūrālium sūdātiōnum, ubi terrā profūsus calidus vapor aedificiō inclūditur. │ Sweating also is elicited in two ways, either by dry heat, or by the bath. The dry is the heat of hot sand… and of some natural sweating places, where hot vapour exhaling from the ground is confined within a building.

Level 3: indefinites [11] quīdam [i]

The -dam suffix, which is indeclinable, indicates “a certain”

As a reminder …

[i] Like the other indefinites, it can stand alone as a pronoun:

quīdam [m], quaedam [f], quiddam [n]: a certain (person); a certain (thing); there are certain people who think … i.e. it is not specific as to who or what it’s referring to

[ii] It can also function as an adjective with a slight difference in the neuter:

quīdam [m], quaedam [f], quoddam [n]: a certain king once said; in a certain kingdom there lived a certain soldier:

I have given the declension of both [i] and [ii] in the same image; this is for reference only and, apart from the neuter singular nominative and accusative there is no difference between them. Note, however, the use of /n/ in the accusatives and the genitive plurals; as long as you can recognise that “dam” ending, then you’ll be fine!

What’s the difference between [1] quīdam and [2] aliquis (discussed in the previous posts)?

[1] Et dīcit Jēsus: Tetigit mē aliquis (Vulgate) │ And Jesus says: somebody touched me

English can make a similar distinction although it isn’t consistent in translation: somebody touched Jesus, but Jesus has no idea who it was

[2] habitant hīc quaedam mulierēs pauperculae (Terence) │ certain poor women live here

The speaker knows / is aware of a certain group of women but provides no further details.

At times, quīdam has little more ‘force’ than the English indefinite article a/an as in the following two examples:

“There lived a king, as I’ve been told, in the wonder-working days of old” (W.S. Gilbert)

There was a soldier, a Scottish soldier, / Who wandered far away / And soldiered far away (Stewart)

If those lyrics were in Latin, quīdam would convey the idea: quīdam rēx │ a (certain) king; quīdam mīles │ a (certain) soldier i.e. they are not referring to ‘some king / soldier or other’, but to specific ones in the speaker’s minds but with no names.

[1] aliquī philosophī ita putant │ some philosophers think so [but I have no idea who they are]

[2] quīdam philosophī ita putant │ certain philosophers think so [and I have certain ones in mind but no further information about them is being given]

Look out for: quondam; from quom (older spelling of cum: when) > quon + dam: at one time; formerly; once (in the past); at times; some day (in the future)

Examples and practice in the next posts

LINKS

26.07.24: Level 2; Dē crocodīlō [1]

https://adckl.blogspot.com/2024/06/260724-level-2-de-crocodilo-1.html

30.11.24: Comenius; in a 17th century school [5]; quīdam

https://adckl.blogspot.com/2024/09/301124-comenius-in-17th-century-school_29.html

Level 3: the best fortifications

A very short anecdote to introduce the word in bold:

Quīdam ōlim Spartānō dīxit: "Cūr moenia nōn habet Sparta?" Contrā Spartānus inquit:
"Nē mentītus sīs, optime; moenia praestantissima, incolārum scīlicet virtūtem, urbs nostra habet."

scīlicet: (various meanings) of course; naturally; namely

[1] quīdam: a certain; see the next three Level 3 posts

[2] nē … sis: present subjunctive of esse and used here in a negative command i.e. ‘do not be …’ [ = may you not be]

[3] mentītus, -a, -um: deceived < mentior, -īrī, -ītus sum [4/deponent]: lie

[4] optime: vocative case; (here) my very good (friend)

[5] praestō, -āre, -stāvī / -stitī, praestātus / praestitus [1]: be outstanding; excel > praestāns, praestantis: outstanding

____________________

Some one [= a certain (person)] once said to a Spartan, ‘Why does Sparta not have walls?’ In reply, the Spartan said, ‘Do not be deceived, my good friend; our city has outstanding walls, namely the courage of its inhabitants.’

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta

Antique map of classical city of Sparta (based on ancient sources and not archaeology)

The theatre of ancient Sparta with Mt. Taygetus in the background

By Κούμαρης Νικόλαος, Attribution, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=7035971

Medieval depiction of Sparta from the Nuremberg Chronicle (1493); note the title LACEDEMONIA

Level 3: indefinites [10]: quis / quid; sī / nisi / num / nē … quis / quid

quis / quid: their most common use – by far – is to ask the questions who and what? However, they can act as indefinites i.e. any, anybody, anything, but their use is rare and generally restricted to the following constructions:

[i] with sī (if)

Sī quis venit, dīc mihi statim │ If anybody comes, tell me immediately

Puerum reddat, sī quis eum petat (Plautus) │ Let her give up the child if anybody asks for him

In praise of cabbage (Cato):

Hanc oportet māne ieiūnum esse. Īnsomnis vel sī quis est seniōsus* hāc eādem cūrātiōne sānum faciēs │ If anyone is sleepless or rather elderly, you can make well by this same treatment

*seniōsus: only attested here

Et sī quis ulcus … habēbit, hanc brassicam errāticam aquā spargitō, oppōnitō; sānum faciēs │ If someone has an ulcer … sprinkle this wild cabbage with water and apply it; you will cure him.

Sī quem pūrgāre volēs, prīdiē nē cēnet … │ If you want to cleanse anybody, he (i.e. the patient) should not dine the previous day

Sī quid anteā malī [genitive] intus erit, omnia sāna faciet │ If anything previously bad is inside, it will make everything healthy

Posteā māne bibat sūcum dēambuletque hōrās IIII, agat, negōtī [genitive] sī quid habēbit │ Early the next morning he should drink the juice and walk about for four hours, (and) if he has any business, he should attend to it

[ii] with nisi (unless; if … not)

nisi quis renātus fuerit ex aquā et Spīritū nōn potest introīre in rēgnum Deī (Vulgate) │ Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God [ = If somebody is not born …

nisi quis nōs deus respexerit (Cicero) │ unless some god shows regard for us

ego eō ad forum nisi quid vīs (Plautus) │ I’m going to the forum, unless you want anything [ = if you don’t want anything]

Ego, nisi quid mē vīs, eō lavātum (Plautus) │ Unless you want me for anything, I’m going to take a bath

Nunc quidem, nisi quid tē tenuit, suspicor tē esse in suburbānō (Cicero) │ Now I suppose you are in your suburban estate, unless anything kept you.

[iii] with num

num: surely … not i.e. expecting a negative answer

num + quis = surely not anybody = surely nobody

Num quis negat? (Cicero) │ Does anybody deny it? [ = Surely not anybody denies it / surely nobody denies it]

Num quis Pīsōnī est adsēnsus? (Cicero) │ Did anybody agree with Piso? [i.e. it isn’t *Who agreed?*, but did anybody agree]

In this example you can see that Cicero expects a negative reply by answering the question himself:

Num quem tribūnum plēbis servī M. Tullī pulsāvērunt? nōn opīnor │ Surely the slaves of Marcus Tulius had not assaulted any tribune of the people, had they? I think not.

Num quid vīs? (Plautus) │ Is there anything you want? [literally: Surely, you don’t want anything? = You don’t want anything, do you? i.e. it isn’t *What do you want?*]

[iv] with nē

We look at this use gain in a later, and far broader topic which goes way beyond what is discussed here, but it’s included in this section for reference and for the sake of completeness without going into detail about the grammar that is connected to it:

nē … quis / quid: literally = lest anyone / anything = so that nobody / nothing

It occurs in sentences which convey the idea of

This construction is followed by the subjunctive and so, for now, simply recognise the meaning of nē … quis / quid:

Nē quis sē commovēre audēret, quantum terrōris iniēcit! (Cicero) │ Lest anybody [ = so that nobody] would dare to stir, what an amount of terror he struck into them!

vidēte nē quis vōs dēcipiat per philosophiam et inānem fallāciam (Vulgate) │ See to it (so) that nobody may deceive you through philosophy and empty deceit

Vidēte nē quis vōs sēdūcat (Vulgate) │ Take heed lest any man should deceive you [ = so that no man]

et praecēpit eīs ¦ nē quid tollerent in viā (Vulgate) │ And he commanded them ¦ to take nothing on the journey … [literally: so that they would not take anything]

Image: the clock of Wells Cathedral with the inscription …

NĒ QUID PEREAT: lest anything perish = so that nothing perishes

bona eōrum, nē quid ex contāgiōne noxae remanēret penes* nōs, Rōmam portāvimus (Livy) │ Their goods, so that nothing from the contagion of the crime might remain with us / in our possession, we brought to Rome.

*penes (preposition + accusative) [i] under the command of [ii] (here) in the possession of

Both constructions discussed in this post in the same sentence:

Exsolvāmus religiōne populum, sī quā obligāvimus, nē quid dīvīnī [genitive] hūmānīve [genitive] obstet. (Livy) │ Let us release the people from religious obligation, if in any way we have bound them, so that nothing [ = not anything] divine or human may stand in the way.

Level 3: indefinites [9]: -piam

[1] quispiam [2] quis: these two indefinite pronouns work in the same way as aliquis. In this post we will look at quispiam

[1] quispiam, quaepiam, quidpiam (quippiam) / quodpiam: anyone / someone … (or other); anything / something … (or other)

Some Latin grammars interpret this as more general than aliquis hence “… or other” sometimes added as part of the basic meaning.

The first five examples, from Gellius’ Attic Nights, well illustrate that the basic meaning of an indefinite may not be specifically conveyed in English, but think about the ‘general’ idea that underpins them, almost a sense of ‘randomness’. English can convey a similar sense in statements such as: “Some receptionist or other told me the hotel was full.”

[i] Ē mīlitibus, quī in iūre apud eum stābant, interrogāvit quispiam ex mōre … │ Then one of the soldiers who were on trial before him asked in the usual way … [ = literally: from the soldiers … someone asked …]

[ii] Dīxit ibi quispiam nōbīscum sedēns amīcus meus …│ Then a friend of mine sitting with us …

[iii] Atque ibi adulēscēns quispiam … inquit … │ And thereupon a young man … said … [i.e. some young man or other, but who he is has no relevance]

[iv] Tum quispiam, quī cum eō erat, … │ Then one of those who were with him …

[v] Laudābat vēnditābatque sē nūper quispiam in lībrāriā sedēns homō ineptē glōriōsus … │ Lately a foolish, boastful fellow, sitting in a bookseller's shop, was praising and advertising himself, …

[vi] Habēn* tū amīcum aut familiārem quempiam …? (Plautus) │ Have you any friend or intimate acquaintance …?

*contraction: habēs + ne

[vii] Num mīrum aut novom [ = novum] quippiam facit? (Plautus) │ He doesn't do anything wonderful or strange, does he?

[viii] num tū pudīcae cuipiam īnsidiās locās aut quam pudīcam esse oportet?  (Plautus) │ You're not laying snares for some respectable woman, or one that ought to be respectable ?

Four examples from Cicero’s damning indictment of Verres.

[i] Verres has been accused of executing a Roman citizen, Cicero arguing that this action would now allow any other official at all to carry out a similar punishment:

tolle hanc spem, tolle hoc praesidium cīvibus Rōmānīs, cōnstitue nihil esse opis in hāc vōce, 'cīvis Rōmānus sum,' posse impūne praetōrem aut alium quempiam supplicium quod velit in eum cōnstituere quī sē cīvem Rōmānum esse dīcat …

Take away this hope, take away this protection from Roman citizens, establish the fact that there is no assistance to be found in the words “I am a Roman citizen;” that a praetor, or any other (officer), may with impunity order any punishment he pleases to be inflicted on a man who says that he is a Roman citizen …

Similarly, Cicero generalises in the following statements:

[ii] Verrēs … omnia domō eius abstulit quae paulō magis animum cuiuspiam aut oculōs possent commovēre │ Verres … took away from his house everything which could in any uncommon degree delight the mind or eyes of any one.

[iii] quī simul atque in oppidum quodpiam vēnerat │ for as soon as he ever came into any city …

[iv] Note the two indefinites; I have translated them differently although their meanings overlap:

Quis nōs magnō opere attendit umquam in hōc quidem genere causārum, ubi aliquid ēreptum aut ablātum ā quōpiam dīcitur?

In cases of this type, where something is alleged to have been stolen or appropriated by anyone who ever really pays attention to us?

Level 3: Theodorus [2]; notes [ii] imperative of passive and deponent verbs

 [i] The imperative (command form) of the verb tells somebody actively to do something, for example: “Finish your homework”, “Give me the money”, “Go away”.

https://adckl.blogspot.com/2024/04/220324-imperatives-1-telling-people-to.html

portō, -āre [1] > portā! (sg.) / portāte! (pl.) │ carry!

maneō, -ēre [2] > manē! (sg.) / manēte! (pl.) │ carry!

scrībō, -ere [3] > scrībe! (sg.) / scrībite! (pl.) │ write!

capiō, -ere [3-iō] > cape! (sg.) / capite! (pl.) │ take!

audiō, -īre [4] > audī! (sg.) / audīte (pl.) │ listen!

[ii] The imperative passive is when somebody is commanded to do an action to him/herself. It is a rare construction, but it does exist:

“Please be advised that there will be a meeting at 15.00.”

“Please be assured that we will do everything to help.”

“I’ve already told you twice. Be warned, I won’t tell you again.”

Likewise, the imperative passive in Latin is uncommon. It is formed as follows:

Present active infinitive: laudāre │ to love > active imperative: laudā! (sg.) / laudāte! (pl.) │ praise!

Present passive infinitive: laudārī │ to be loved > passive imperative: laudāre! (sg.) / laudāminī (pl.) │ be praised!

i.e. the 2^nd person singular of the passive imperative is the same as the present active infintive. Therefore, in context, laudāre could mean either (1) to praise or (2) be praised! In practice, it is (1) that will by far most commonly occur

The 2^nd person plural of the passive imperative is the same as the 2^nd person plural of the passive verb. Therefore, in context, laudāminī could mean either (1) you (pl.) are praised or (2) be praised! (pl.)

moneō, -ēre [2]: warn > monēre! (sg.) / monēminī! (pl.) │ be warned!

doceō, -ēre [2]: teach > docēre! (sg.) / docēminī! (pl.) │ be taught!

regō, -ere [3]: rule > regere! (sg.) / regiminī! (pl.) │ be ruled!

capiō, -ere [3-iō]: capture > capere! (sg.) / capiminī (pl.) │ be captured!

audiō, -īre [4]: hear > audīre! (sg.) / audīminī (pl.) │ be heard!

puniō, -īre [4]: punish > punīre! (sg.) / punīminī! (pl.) │ be punished!

Video link: present passive infinitive

The uploaded video has been edited to include only the topic discussed here. The full video is at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qzhpm1hoo4&t=4s

[iii] The imperative of deponent verbs

“istīs,” inquit “ista crūdelia mināre prīmōribus tuīs” │ Threaten these cruelties to those nobles of yours.

As has already been covered, deponent verbs are passive in form but active in meaning. Therefore, the imperative forms are active i.e. telling somebody actively to do something

minārī │ to threaten > imperative: mināre! (sg.) │ threaten! (not *be threatened*)

[i] In the 1st, 2nd and 4th conjugation of the deponents, the 2nd singular and plural imperative is formed with the stem vowel of the infinitive + -re / -minī

minor, minārī [1/deponent] > mināre! / mināminī! │ threaten!

polliceor, pollicērī [2/deponent] > pollicēre! / pollicēminī! │ promise!

potior, potīrī [4/deponent] > potīre! / potīminī! │ take possession!

[ii] In the 3rd / 3-iō conjugations, the formation is a little different:

Remove the -ī from the infinitive

sequor, sequī (to follow) > sequ-

For 2nd singular add -e+re > sequere! │ follow! (sg.)

For 2nd plural add -i+minī > sequiminī! │ follow! (pl.)

Below are further examples of the imperative of deponent verbs:

hortor,  hortārī [1/dep] > hortāre! (sg.) / hortāminī! (pl.) │ encourage!

misereor, miserērī [2/dep] > miserēre! (sg.) /miserēminī! (pl.) │ take pity!

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loquor, loquī [3/dep] > loquere! (sg.) / loquiminī! (pl.) │ speak!

proficīscor, proficīscī [3/dep] > proficīscere! (sg.) / proficīsciminī! (pl.) │ set out!

ingredior, ingredī [3-iō/dep] > ingredere! (sg.) / ingrediminī! (pl.) │ go in!

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orior, orīrī [4/dep] > orīre! (sg.) / orīminī! (pl.) │ arise!

mentior, mentīrī [4/dep] > mentīre! (sg.) / mentīminī! (pl.) │ lie!